Cheeky Chats with Penny de Valk

Cheeky Chats is a series where I ask Tech Leaders the same three quick-fire questions. The idea is to have a brief conversation with someone in the office kitchen or at a coffee shop.

For my next Cheeky Chat, I sit down with Penny de Valk. Penny is an internationally experienced Chief Executive and Non-Executive Director; she is a real powerhouse, spending 25 years in leadership development. She is a coach and mentors leaders and leadership teams that specialise in working with women leaders.

VENESSA: Hi Penny, imagine we're grabbing a coffee in a coffee shop, and I'm just going to ask you three quick-fire questions.

PENNY: Okay.

V: So my first question to you, Penny, is, what's the hardest thing you've had to do in the last year?

P: The hardest thing I've had to do in the last year is, oh boy, there's been a lot of tough things, but the thing that's been harder than being a coach… I try to do something every year that puts me completely out of my comfort zone so that I remember what it's like. Otherwise, it's just too easy to get to a stage in your career and think you are at the top of your game. And so I decided to learn to sing. I love music, and I love singing, and I'm definitely a shower singer, but yes, that was the hardest thing I did to sing in front of people. So it was great. It really did, though, take me right out of my comfort zone, which I think was good for me, if not for the ears of those people around me.

V: The thing about singing that people don't realise is how technical it is. How much you need to put into it. I used to be in a choir and I dropped out.

P: It's a lesson on a number of levels, isn't it? One is that it's an instrument, and practising is really important, and understanding the instrument and what you're capable of doing, and not this whole business of ‘he's or she's a natural singer’. It ain't true. People are working at it all of the time. So, yes, that was hard, but rewarding.

V: Okay, interesting. And what is your top learning that you've had within the last three years?

P: Gosh, I've learned a lot. If I really distilled it down to not personal, not professional, but that whole mixture of the two, I'd say my biggest learning would be around trusting my instincts about people. Now, you'd think that I should have learned that many years ago, long enough in the tooth to have done so, but yes, to just not keep second guessing myself or overthinking. Why do I feel this about this individual? So being skillful about it, not just going, I don't like this person because I think they don't like me, or anything like that, but really learning to be guided by both your instincts and your intellect around who to trust and then really taking a risk with that.

V: I think it's quite hard to do that, especially because your gut instinct is something that is intuitive to you. But do you trust it? Do you not trust it?

P: Yes. And our gut instincts, our reactions, often come from a place of both ignorance and fear. So we have to really listen wisely to our fears because often they are sending us distorted signals, but they're our friends; they're just keeping us safe. But often, we can tell ourselves that we are less safe than we really are. So, really learning to listen to that and then responding as opposed to just reacting to our immediate thoughts, I think, is a learning that has served me well.

V: What I like about that is the fact that you're adding the intellect side to it, a lot of people just respond or react rather than actually just thinking things through logically. Why is this person making me feel this way? I really break it down so that I can learn about myself.

P: I love that because it's also taking responsibility because no one can make you feel anything. It's what we are doing. What do we believe about that? What have we told ourselves about their behaviour? So that's probably the most powerful learning for me, not just in the last three years, but over my life, is how do we manage our own minds and manage our beliefs and our emotional responses to things, so we don't spend our life just reacting to things and blaming other people for how we feel.

V: Yeah exactly. Last question. What would you say is your superpower?

P: You mean I have to pick one? Ha ha. I mean, sometimes I do feel like I have superpowers. I think probably related to what I was talking about before is that my superpower is probably my tribe. What do I mean by that? I've been very selective all my life and I don't think I've done it intentionally because my friends are so important to me. I just feel so grateful that I have a tribe all around the world, wherever I've worked, I've been really selective and not in a sniffy way. And often it was really hard because when I was CEO, it wasn't appropriate for me to make friends with people who were in my organisation. But I'd often go, he's great. Or she's really good. And then when that reporting line or that reporting relationship was no longer there, being able to befriend them, which was really great. So I think my superpower is this fantastic tribe of mostly women around the world who are soulmates, who are great thinking partners, who are hilarious when they need to be, hilarious and deep and profound when they need to be, whether that's calling me on anything through to calling me out on anything. Like saying, but you said you weren't going to do that through to just recommending some gorgeous book that we both know we're reading and connecting on. So I would say my superpower is my connection to my amazing tribe that has been curated over decades.

V: I love that. I would add, that I really admire your objectiveness. You have a really good perspective of things, and you have this ability to turn things almost on their head, which I quite admire about you.

P: Thank you, Venessa. Thank you. Turning things on their heads. Well, that might be a second superpower.

V: Well, thank you, Penny, for answering my questions.

P: It's so good to see you, Venessa.